Defense vs Fortitude - Guild Wars Forums

jimbo32 · Apr 17, 2009, 06:11 PM // 18:11

I'm not sure if this belongs in Q&A or General Discussion, but I guess it's sort of related to dbulger's earlier question about the warrior insignia.

I read somewhere (I think it was on a PvX build talk page) a comment stating that defensive (+5 AL) weapon upgrades have more of a positive effect than +30 Fortitude ones. There weren't any statistics provided or anything - iirc, the poster said he had "run the numbers" or somesuch.

So here's what I'm wondering: has anyone actually "run the numbers" and verified this, or was this dude just blowing smoke? According to the GW Damage Calc posted in dbulger's thread, the difference in damage (Axe 6-28, 12 Str/Axe mastery, 20% sundering mod) averages 2.4 points per hit when comparing 60AL to 65AL. Since axes attack every 1.33 seconds, the actual DPS difference would be 1.8. Obviously, that's just one example, and there's no doubt a larger difference when you're dealing with Ele spikes, etc.

So, my original question - possible, likely, or complete bs?

Shayne Hawke · Apr 17, 2009, 06:30 PM // 18:30

There was a thread addressing this recently. It might not have been hosted on these forums. Let me look for it and get back to you.

Rebel Rising forum thread.

I believe there, they were talking about Survivor Insignias vs. Disciples, but the same argument sorta applies here. I personally see more gain in taking 30 health than 5 AL. If there's a difference in those, it seems like it would be pretty slight. The difference between 15 AL and ~40 health might be more noticeable.

snaek · Apr 17, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51

weaponsets, i take both (though i'm on my defense set more often)
armoursets, depends on the profession, or more specifically the insignia available

FoxBat · Apr 17, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

+5 is 8% damage reduction. So ~400 armor-respecting damage on a spike would become 370ish. A little worse than fortitude on spikes, but pretty close, and it negates pressure in a way that survivor can't. Also if you are going to run armor insignias, you have to worry about crack armor spikes on some builds - this can mean the difference between 60 and 63 armor.

The thing is you can carry both weapons in inventory. If your morale is good and facing a pressure team or on split, go +5 def. Versus a spike team or after building some DP, switch to +30 HP.

HawkofStorms · Apr 17, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Mathematically speaking, as FoxBat said, +5 will do more for you in the long run.
However, a lot of builds run with armor ignoring damage (such as ranger/warriors +x damage attack skills) or use degen. So +30 is often better in a lot of PvP situations where people are running spikes.

jimbo32 · Apr 17, 2009, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Ok, that's sensible.

Now what about HM PvE? I do a lot of solo vanquishing with heroes and hench, and I'm sure there are times when proper equipment can make a huge difference. For the most part, I usually just mindlessly set up my heroes with Survivor and a +30 weapon (with some situational exceptions - Paras with Centurion and Dervs with Windwalker, maybe a few others). Now I'm thinking that my Ranger heroes (for instance) might be better off in Stalwart with a +5AL weapon. 105 AL vs Elemental and 85 AL vs Physical is nothing to sneeze at for a midliner, and it may make more of a difference than the extra health from Survivor/Fortitude.

I'm not sure what to do with casters (I mostly use Necro, Ele, and occasionally Mes heroes if I'm not running a physical/orders setup). Leave em with Survivor/Fortitude, or switch to whatever/+5AL?

Thoughts?

Boneyard Spleeneater · Apr 17, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

It also depends on the AI targeting mechanism.

AI targets based on: Health, Armor, Regeneration, Range, and Enchants/Stances/Blocks. A boost to defense may be better on a squishy to lower the chance they will be targeted, whereas you may want to let a tank, who already has high armor, have high health instead, in order to have a better chance of drawing aggro.

Apr 17, 2009, 06:11 PM // 18:11	#1
jimbo32 Site Contributor Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Guild: Gentlemens Club [GC] Profession: W/	Defense vs Fortitude I'm not sure if this belongs in Q&A or General Discussion, but I guess it's sort of related to dbulger's earlier question about the warrior insignia. I read somewhere (I think it was on a PvX build talk page) a comment stating that defensive (+5 AL) weapon upgrades have more of a positive effect than +30 Fortitude ones. There weren't any statistics provided or anything - iirc, the poster said he had "run the numbers" or somesuch. So here's what I'm wondering: has anyone actually "run the numbers" and verified this, or was this dude just blowing smoke? According to the GW Damage Calc posted in dbulger's thread, the difference in damage (Axe 6-28, 12 Str/Axe mastery, 20% sundering mod) averages 2.4 points per hit when comparing 60AL to 65AL. Since axes attack every 1.33 seconds, the actual DPS difference would be 1.8. Obviously, that's just one example, and there's no doubt a larger difference when you're dealing with Ele spikes, etc. So, my original question - possible, likely, or complete bs?

Apr 17, 2009, 06:30 PM // 18:30	#2
Shayne Hawke Departed from Tyria Join Date: May 2007 Guild: Clan Dethryche [dth] Profession: R/	There was a thread addressing this recently. It might not have been hosted on these forums. Let me look for it and get back to you. Rebel Rising forum thread. I believe there, they were talking about Survivor Insignias vs. Disciples, but the same argument sorta applies here. I personally see more gain in taking 30 health than 5 AL. If there's a difference in those, it seems like it would be pretty slight. The difference between 15 AL and ~40 health might be more noticeable. Last edited by Shayne Hawke; Apr 17, 2009 at 06:34 PM // 18:34..

Apr 17, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51	#3
snaek Forge Runner Join Date: Mar 2006 Profession: N/	weaponsets, i take both (though i'm on my defense set more often) armoursets, depends on the profession, or more specifically the insignia available

Apr 17, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55	#4
FoxBat Furnace Stoker Join Date: Apr 2006 Guild: Amazon Basin [AB] Profession: Mo/Me	+5 is 8% damage reduction. So ~400 armor-respecting damage on a spike would become 370ish. A little worse than fortitude on spikes, but pretty close, and it negates pressure in a way that survivor can't. Also if you are going to run armor insignias, you have to worry about crack armor spikes on some builds - this can mean the difference between 60 and 63 armor. The thing is you can carry both weapons in inventory. If your morale is good and facing a pressure team or on split, go +5 def. Versus a spike team or after building some DP, switch to +30 HP.

Apr 17, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30	#5
HawkofStorms Hall Hero Join Date: Aug 2005 Profession: E/	Mathematically speaking, as FoxBat said, +5 will do more for you in the long run. However, a lot of builds run with armor ignoring damage (such as ranger/warriors +x damage attack skills) or use degen. So +30 is often better in a lot of PvP situations where people are running spikes.

Apr 17, 2009, 07:33 PM // 19:33	#6
jimbo32 Site Contributor Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Guild: Gentlemens Club [GC] Profession: W/	Ok, that's sensible. Now what about HM PvE? I do a lot of solo vanquishing with heroes and hench, and I'm sure there are times when proper equipment can make a huge difference. For the most part, I usually just mindlessly set up my heroes with Survivor and a +30 weapon (with some situational exceptions - Paras with Centurion and Dervs with Windwalker, maybe a few others). Now I'm thinking that my Ranger heroes (for instance) might be better off in Stalwart with a +5AL weapon. 105 AL vs Elemental and 85 AL vs Physical is nothing to sneeze at for a midliner, and it may make more of a difference than the extra health from Survivor/Fortitude. I'm not sure what to do with casters (I mostly use Necro, Ele, and occasionally Mes heroes if I'm not running a physical/orders setup). Leave em with Survivor/Fortitude, or switch to whatever/+5AL? Thoughts?

Apr 17, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54	#7
Boneyard Spleeneater Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Seattle Guild: Immortal Corruptors [GWAR] Profession: Me/N	It also depends on the AI targeting mechanism. AI targets based on: Health, Armor, Regeneration, Range, and Enchants/Stances/Blocks. A boost to defense may be better on a squishy to lower the chance they will be targeted, whereas you may want to let a tank, who already has high armor, have high health instead, in order to have a better chance of drawing aggro.